That’s why when she and Kanye West enlisted the help of a surrogate to welcome their third child, daughter Chicago West, Kim went to great lengths to ensure a positive experience for all involved.

E! News has an exclusive sneak peek from Kim’s latest interview with Laura Wasser—the celebrity divorce attorney and founder of online divorce platform It’s Over Easy—for her new iHeart Radio original podcast, All’s Fair, where the E! reality TV star shared new details from Chi’s birth story.

Kim said she leaned on what she described as a “surrogate therapist” while building a relationship with the woman who was carrying her baby.

“You get your surrogate attorney, you get your surrogate broker and then the broker recommended that we use a therapist that would communicate with me first and then communicate with her and kind of be our liaison,” she explained.

It didn’t take long for Kim and her surrogate, who appeared anonymously on Keeping Up With the Kardashians prior to Chi’s Jan. 2018 arrival, to form a close relationship.

“Towards the end we got close enough where we could communicate really without that,” Kim recalled. “[The therapist] would suggest, ‘Hey, I think you guys should communicate once a week through text, maybe on Mother’s Day. She’s a mother as well. Maybe get her a massage or something that’s appropriate for her to pamper.’”

“Things like going through the birthing plan, so if anything was uncomfortable she would be that buffer to say, ‘This is who I want in the room. What are you comfortable with? How does this work?”

“I’m so grateful for modern technology and that this is even possible. It’s not for everyone, but I absolutely love my gestational carrier and this was the best experience I’ve ever had. Our gestational carrier gave us the greatest gift one could give,” Kim continued at the time.

In May 2019, Kim and Kanye welcomed their fourth child via a different surrogate.